Hernia

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Hernia

Postby NEIowaHunter » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:17 pm

Had the pup to the vet today for his first visit. She really liked what she saw, except that he has a very small hernia. Apparently it is a congenital thing. Doc said that sometimes there is a heart murmur associated with it, but there is not in his case. She said we should watch it, but at 6 months when she neuters him, she will do a simple surgery ( a small incision and a couple of stitches) to fix the matter. She also recommends against breeding him (hence the neutering) due to the congenital nature of the defect. The pup is a great pup. She loved his confirmation and personality..calm and curious; bold, but not aggressive.

I have two questions related to this.

1) Any of you folks have experience with this? (She says about 1 in 10 dogs have this)
2) The pup came with a healthy pup guarantee. Should I do something other than contact the breeder, which I have done by email?

Any input would be appreciated.
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Re: Hernia

Postby orhunter » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:55 pm

Don't get the pup neutered at 6 months!!!! Absolutely crazy idea. If this is what your vet suggested, time for a new vet.

I think the hernia is far less common than the vet indicated.

Contacting the breeder was the correct move. Make sure the breeder acknowledges getting it and print a copy of that acknowledgment.
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Re: Hernia

Postby Spy Car » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:58 pm

orhunter wrote:Don't get the pup neutered at 6 months!!!! Absolutely crazy idea. If this is what your vet suggested, time for a new vet.


I agree. If a vet suggested neutering a gun-dog at 6 months I'd find a new vet. Crazy is right.

Has this vet read the studies (Rottweiler, Golden Retriever, and Vizsla studies) on the damaging health consequences of early neuter???

Nutz.

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Re: Hernia

Postby lanco » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:32 am

Your veterinarian is giving pretty standard advise there. I'm not sure all umbilical hernia are congenital or relavant. If I can fit the tip of my pinky into an umbilical hernia I recomend closing it especially in working dogs or bitches intended for breeding.
I'm dubious about any health benefits to neutering male dogs outside of avoiding prostatitis and testicular tumors which are really rare. There are behavioral benefits to early neutering from a general public perspective, less inter-male aggression, less marking, (maybe) less humping and roaming. If a dogs final weight will be over 55-60# there is some evidence that risk of orthopedic injuries is less in intact males compared to neutered. Extrapolating cancer risk from studdies of rotties and goldens is fraught with problems sense both breeds are veritable cancer factories. Finding a veterinarian who doesn't worship at the alter of Bob Barker is tough (go euthanize 200-2000 unwanted puppies and kittens and you will wish there WAS a simple way out of pet overpopulation issues). Finding a veterinarian who thinks in terms of working dogs can be tougher.

Here what I would do
1) Contact the breeder and let them know about the hernia.
2) Repair the hernia in a stand alone hernia if indicated at 4-6 months of age.
3) Raise train and enjoy your dog, if he tests well, hunts well and has a truly good disposition and you are interested
breeding then when he is 2+ get all the standard health clearances indicated for his breed.

FWIW I have never known of a link between umbilical hernias being linked to heart defects, although both are common issues in skeevey puppy mill morkie-poos and such.
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Re: Hernia

Postby lanco » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:27 am

additional thought:

1) if your dog is from a German registry then the breed warden might exclude this dog. That said it isn't required that you castrate a dog, just be responsible and don't breed him.

2) if you ever do breed inform the bitches owner

3) If you want to try and "split the difference" between pre-puebertal neutering and having a 2+ year old male with set behaviors as far as fighting and marking (unlike cats and cattle neutering adult dogs doesn't reduce these behaviors in my experience) you can neuter at 12-15 months. That isn't a recomendation just an option.

Also I would exclude any dogs with umbilical hernias larger than a dime, inguinal hernias or any other body wall defect as puppies from breeding. Hope this helps and hopefully Kiwi and Hunt can chime in too.
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Re: Hernia

Postby STait » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:02 am

It is nice to have someone like Lanco on this forum, a working dog person that knows what they're talking about.

I have heard that on the tiny umbilical hernias you can sometimes get them to heal themselves by massaging them back in several times a day. Do you recommend this treatment lanco?

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Re: Hernia

Postby Doc E » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:21 am

NEIowaHunter wrote: at 6 months when she neuters him

Any input would be appreciated.


Bad Vet - Bad Vet :( :cry:

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Re: Hernia

Postby lanco » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:38 am

I think some very small hernias present on young puppies will resolve as the dog grows but I don't think massaging helps.
I think it's hard to label someone as a bad veterinarian for expressing an orthodox position. It's important to remember that most folks on this forum represent the 0.5% of owners who train dogs to the level of off lead control and run them for hours and miles regularly. What serious dog guys (and gals) want and need is not typical of most pet owners. Try to discuss what your dog does and needs to make sure the vet gets it.
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Re: Hernia

Postby Doc E » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:38 am

lanco wrote:1. I think it's hard to label someone as a bad veterinarian for expressing an orthodox position

2. Try to discuss what your dog does and needs to make sure the vet gets it.


1. I kind of agree, I just wish more Vets would keep up to speed on the preponderance of evidence.
2. Sometimes it's difficult for some vets to "get it".

I (and many many others) appreciate Doctors such as yourself.

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Re: Hernia

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:03 am

I'm with lanco on this. I recommend pet dogs be neutered not before 6 months, and dogs with any working potential be neutered between 12 and 18 months if they want to neuter. Health problems in males don't show up until late in life, there's no rush.

Also, was your pup the only one in the litter, or were multiple pups affected? Small hernias don't bother me, and my idea of small is you can't feel the edges of it, you can only feel the fat poking through. Most of these will self-resolve as the pup grows.

I had a breeder of some fancy lap dog breed come in where 4 of 6 puppies had hernias big enough to fit a finger through (large enough to cause serious complications like twisted intestines and death in a small breed) I recommend not repeating the breeding and she told me hernias were normal in her breed! Hernias can absolutely be congenital, this litter certainly was, but that does not mean they all are.
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Re: Hernia

Postby NEIowaHunter » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:54 am

Thanks for all the well informed advice. The vet says he also has an "outie " belly button, also. As to the size, I guess it is pretty small, as much of the time I can't find it. Was at my local NAVHDA training day today, and visited with several breeders. They all were death against neutering the dog. Lots of reasons given, but generally, "you be the dog's birth control". Most opinions were that the hernia is so small that it might self-resolve. After how he handled his first live bird exposure, I got several "Don't you dare ".

I don't know if his only litter mate is affected, but will try to find out.

The point about the difference between a pet only dog and an athlete is well taken.

I'll keep everyone apprised.
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Re: Hernia

Postby NEIowaHunter » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:14 pm

Just talked to the breeder. She says (and I take her at her word) that none of the dam's litters have ever presented with hernias. Same for litters from the stud. She posited that "mothers pulling and chewing on the cords" is a can be a cause. How does this jibe with your information?
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Re: Hernia

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:22 pm

I think mother dogs causing the hernia is an old wives tale. I did a quick search before posting to see if there was anything contrary to that opinion, and could not find anything that would make me think otherwise.
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Re: Hernia

Postby lanco » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:32 am

I have actually seen small traumatic hernias in neonates created by overzealous dams and closed them. In theory a similar injury if unnoticed could seal internally by the omentum and externally by muscle contracture leaving a small muscular defect. So it's not an old wives tail but what percentage arise from this vs. congenital vs. developmental ??? Who knows?
I assume the "outies" and >10mm defects COULD occur by a traumatic incident at birth either from being dangled and drug by the chord (it happens) or overzealous chomping by mom. The bigger ones I don't think could self seal so those are definitely true birth defects but even then not all have to be genetic. I don't think research abounds on this topic though.
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Re: Hernia

Postby NEIowaHunter » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:19 am

Ianco,

Your theory makes sense. The outie is barely so, and the hernia is very small. I will have the vet describe it size wise when I next visit. He was from a litter of two, so maybe birth was not as easy as with a larger litter. Have read some such accounts, but as a vet would know more than I.

Again, thanks for all your input.
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