Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:25 am

The incidence is 25%, yes, no joke. I see this in practice as well.

Here's an article on canine mammary tumors, I tried to locate the original studies but was unable to do so. They predate pubmed.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Conten ... C=0&A=1350

I also mis-spoke. Incidence is 0.5% if spayed before first heat, 5%-7% if spayed before 2nd heat, then 25% after 2nd heat.

The risk is high enough and metastasis early enough that I do frequent mammary checks on my shelter dog spayed at 2 years of age, and recommend monthly breast exams to my breeding bitch clients. All bitches should be spayed as soon as breeding is finished to prevent pyometra. Breeding has a preventative effect but as soon as the uterus sits idle risks increase.
Last edited by Misskiwi67 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Doc E » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:27 am

Here's a copy of the most recent article I can find :

A new study on the Vizsla breed adds to a growing body of evidence that there’s a need to rethink traditional spay/neuter procedures for dogs in the U.S. The study evaluated the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in spayed and neutered Vizslas.
The Vizsla study involved over 2,500 dogs and found that in general, desexed (spayed or neutered) dogs had significantly increased risk for developing several types of cancer, and also behavioral disorders. Researchers concluded that “The younger the age at gonadectomy, the earlier the mean age at diagnosis of mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms.”
The researchers additionally stated, “Analysis of the present study suggested that gonadectomy does not inevitably result in a healthier, more temperamentally stable dog.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Vizsla study involved 2,505 dogs, and reported these results:

•Dogs neutered or spayed at any age were at significantly increased risk for developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with intact dogs.
•Females spayed at 12 months or younger, and both genders neutered or spayed at over 12 months had significantly increased odds of developing hemangiosarcoma, compared with intact dogs.
•Dogs of both genders neutered or spayed at 6 months or younger had significantly increased odds of developing a behavioral disorder, including separation anxiety, noise phobia, timidity, excitability, submissive urination, aggression, hyperactivity, and/or fear biting. When it came to thunderstorm phobia, all neutered or spayed Vizslas were at greater risk than intact Vizslas, regardless of age at neutering.
•The younger the age at neutering, the earlier the age at diagnosis with mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms.
•Compared to intact dogs, neutered and spayed dogs had a 3.5 times higher risk of developing mast cell cancer, regardless of what age they were neutered.
•Spayed females had nine times higher incidence of hemangiosarcoma compared to intact females, regardless of when spaying was performed, however, no difference in incidence of this type of cancer was found for neutered vs. intact males.
•Neutered and spayed dogs had 4.3 times higher incidence of lymphoma (lymphosarcoma), regardless of age at time of neutering.
•Neutered and spayed dogs had five times higher incidence of other types of cancer, regardless of age of neutering.
•Spayed females had 6.5 times higher incidence of all cancers combined compared to intact females, and neutered males had 3.6 times higher incidence than intact males.

Here's the link to the article http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Health ... aStudy.pdf

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:37 am

Yes, there are lots of these studies coming out in the last 5 years, some of them better than others but enough consistency that the recommendations should change. I discuss all this with owners where before I just said spay at 6 months.

The problem, as you said, is incidence vs. increase risk. A doubling of risk is a big deal, but an incidence of 0.01% increase to 0.05% compared to 25% incidence of mammary cancer, which does kill dogs just as effectively as osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcona.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Doc E » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:56 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:. A doubling of risk is a big deal,


I have to disagree.
The actual numbers should be based on Number Needed To Treat (NNT).
An example : If I have 100 patients that take a Statin drug for cholesterol control and 100 patients that have the same risk factors, but don't take a Statin drug.

After 4 years, one person on a statin will have died from heart attack or stroke and 2 people will have died from heart attack or stroke................ So that is a doubling of risk, but in actuality, it was only one person more.

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:02 am

What malignant neoplasia would you elect not to treat?
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Coveyrise64 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:34 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Spay between first and second heat for working dogs, before first heat for pet dogs. One heat cycle is acceptable risk to allow for maximal development in working dogs prior to spay. After 2 heat cycles your dogs risk of mammary cancer jumps dramatically, and still outweighs the very mild risk of hemangiosarcona identified in a study on golden retrievers, and osteosarcoma identified in Rottweilers. Both of those breeds are particularly prone to those types of cancers. A more recent study in Labradors found much less significant differences, so spay timing may someday be breed based risk as well.


Other than quicker recovery time, are their any advantages/disadvantages of the Laparoscopic Spay compared to the more traditional method?

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:43 am

AND, when all is said and done in the preventative department, spaying is done, dog gets mammary cancers anyway if it was prone to it. Spaying is no cure all....it is a numbers game. A dog not prone to it most likely won't get it anyway.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:05 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Other than quicker recovery time, are their any advantages/disadvantages of the Laparoscopic Spay compared to the more traditional method?

cr


A good surgeon can perform a spay in 20 minutes, it takes that much time just to set up laparoscopy. In most cases, laparoscopy has no advantages over typical spay, and reduced visualization of important vessels. This is a non-issue with experience, but a lot of vets do laparoscopic procedures infrequently enough for this to be a concern. Experience is by far the biggest predictor of complications.

Adding a typical gastropexy to a spay triples the incision size and significantly increases risk of post-operative discomfort. When combined together, laparoscopic spay/gastropexy is definitely the way to go.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby orhunter » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:31 pm

How to interpret numbers...... When we see a statement that indicates a 25% increase in something, we need to understand the number from which the increase is based. Let's say something has a .5% occurrence rate, very small and pretty much insignificant. If someone's research shows that if we don't spay or follow some other protocol to correct the rate of occurrence, the occurrence rate goes up 25%. A twenty five percent increase might seem scary to some but think about it. What was .5% has shot all the way to .625%, remaining completely insignificant. A 100% increase only amounts to and additional .5% bringing the number up to a whopping 1%. Understand the numbers......
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:53 pm

What's the increase from 0.5% incidence to 25% incidence after the second heat cycle? 500% or am I missing a decimal?

Of those affected, 50% will be malignant. Of those malignant, 50% have metastasized at the time of diagnosis.

When I say incidence, I do mean incidence. 1 in 4 dogs will get mammary tumors if spayed after 2nd heat. Even being 5 times more likely to get cancers of all types doesn't compare. It is, however, more treatable than osteosarcoma. If I had a Rottweiler, I might be more inclined to risk the mammary tumors.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:04 pm

In the study linked above, 7 of 157 females spayed before 6 months acquired hemangiosarcoma, an incidence of 4.4%. Dogs spayed after 12 months only 3 were affected, 1.9% incidence. Spaying after 12 months reduces your risk of this cancer by half, but still pales in comparison to mammary cancer. I chose hemangiosarcoma because it is clinically significant and common through most large breeds. It is more difficult to catch early but treatment and metastatic rates are otherwise similar.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:15 pm

****
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby orhunter » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:32 pm

Misskiwi: You didn't read very close. I didn't say the rate increased to 25%. It increased 25% of .5 which is one eighth. One eighth = .125. .125 + .5 = .625. .5% is one half of 1%. 25% of 1% = .25% or .025 in whole numbers.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:04 pm

Doc E wrote:Men should be castrated so they don't get testicular cancer.
Women should all have bilateral mastectomies so they don't get breast cancer.
The list goes on and on.

.

Not to mention that the spay/no spay has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, just what are your specific veterinary medicine credentials, canine obstetrics, gyno, or Google'?

That aside, a couple of anecdotal remarks:

Concerning spaying (since this post has gotten off topic), we spayed my first DD at 8-years, and my wife assisted in the surgery... She said the uterus virtually disintegrated in her hands as she removed it. I personally think we dodged a bullet. The condition of our dog's uterus and some of the other complications like pyometra from not spaying justify the decision in our estimation if there is little or no intention of breeding.

Getting back on topic... the above mentioned dog died 6-years later at 14-yrs old (from bloat).

A couple of months ago a good friend's 11-year and 14.5-year old DDs bloated within a couple weeks of one another. The later survived... the first didn't.

My current DD pup's mom bloated post partum just before I picked my pup up at 7-wks.

To spay or not to spay is a personal call and another topic to be debated ad nausium. But, if you've decided on it, I'd go ahead and do the preventative surgery for bloat.

I only wish that I'd thought about it when we spayed my pup a couple of months ago.

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Duckdog17 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:25 pm

What exactly does the "anti-bloat" surgery consist of?
I've never even heard of it, but a guy I know has 2 Great Dane's and he's almost lost both of them more than once. He may already know about it, but I thought maybe I could pass some info on to him...
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