Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

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Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby MillieGriff » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:55 am

Hello,

We are proud owners of our first hunting dog, Millie, a now 13-week-old WPG. Millie lives in the house with us. But we are hoping to get her ready to participate in the NAVHDA NA test when the time comes (although since we are complete newbies this will probably test us more than her!). Based upon her size, our vet indicated that we may want to consider a preventative surgery for bloat when we get her spayed. However, our vet thought that she might be on the lower end in terms of size of needing the surgery. At 13 weeks, she is a little over 19 lbs. I wanted to see if people with more Griffon experience might have a particular feeling about this preventative surgery. (Our vet had never even seen a Griffon before.) Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:28 pm

I have never seen or heard of bloat being a big problem in Griffons. She is not really considered high risk for bloat as long as you follow some basic rules.
No elevated food or water bowls. No food 2hrs before or after exercise. Feed twice daily to minimize the amount of food given at one time.

I have had and breed many Griffons and have never heard of any issues. I always say 'trust' your vet but in this case I would tell them not to do the procedure.

Also, are you waiting to get the dog spayed ? Read lots of research out there before YOU decide !!

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby MillieGriff » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:46 pm

Hi GriffMan,

Thanks so much for the reply. We had actually been feeding her out of an elevated bowl because we thought it would prevent bloat, but we'll change it first thing tomorrow morning! We've probably also been feeding her within two hours after exercise too. We've been feeding her three times a day because she acts so hungry. Maybe we should change it to twice a day to give ourselves more of a window for her exercise. So lots of things for us to change, but we definitely don't want to subject her to unnecessary surgery.

Another health-related question: how much (and what type of) exercise is ok for a 13.5 week old Griffon? We like to take her out on walks and some light hikes, and she has a lot of stamina to go on these walks and light hikes. We want to make sure that she gets enough exercise, but we don't want to exert her too much during early development that we cause hip or elbow dysplasia. How much exercise and what kind do you recommend for growing Griffon pups?

Thanks so much for the advice!
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:03 am

There is no clear info on raised food bowls vs. not, some studies say they are better, others say worse. I'm a vet and feed from raised dishes, and it has more to do with keeping them from playing with the dishes than preventing bloat.

Bloat is a risk in any deep chested breed, but recognizing symptoms early and getting immediate care is probably good enough. If it's not too much to add to another procedure, it might be worth getting it done for peace of mind.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:02 am

MillieGriff wrote:Hi GriffMan,

Thanks so much for the reply. We had actually been feeding her out of an elevated bowl because we thought it would prevent bloat, but we'll change it first thing tomorrow morning! We've probably also been feeding her within two hours after exercise too. We've been feeding her three times a day because she acts so hungry. Maybe we should change it to twice a day to give ourselves more of a window for her exercise. So lots of things for us to change, but we definitely don't want to subject her to unnecessary surgery.

Another health-related question: how much (and what type of) exercise is ok for a 13.5 week old Griffon? We like to take her out on walks and some light hikes, and she has a lot of stamina to go on these walks and light hikes. We want to make sure that she gets enough exercise, but we don't want to exert her too much during early development that we cause hip or elbow dysplasia. How much exercise and what kind do you recommend for growing Griffon pups?

Thanks so much for the advice!



I'm glad Misskiwi replied to the thread. I will say I'm not a vet and never will be one. I trust my vet as most people should. I will add that as in all things in life there are lots of " what if " and the vets do a good job of giving you the what if scenerio's and let you make the best decision based on your case. Not every vet is well versed in the hunting breeds as much as other vets, so as a owner you need to get the knowledge you need to help make the right decisions.

Feeding three times a day is good for pups, but to make it easier on you as your pup grows you can go to twice daily. You will not impede on your pups development or health if you take it for walks and free runs. As long as you are not making it run on hard concrete or jump in and out of trucks the pup will be fine. I will take my young pups for walks in fields and let them burn off there energy.
Pups are like sponges, they can take a lot but then they are done they are done. A tired pup is a good thing :lol:
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:22 pm

I will add that everything else Griff Man said I agree with :D

I recommend to my clients not to jog or do other forced exercise (such as an hour of hard play with a ball) until their bones are fully developed, with most large breed hunting dogs have closed growth plates around 12 months of age. With that said, I started jogging short jogs (2 miles maximum) with my pup at 7 months for my own sanity when we could not get her out for an hour of field time daily. You also have to balance the risk of pups doing stupid things if they don't get exercise. We did have an unusual situation where my pup had to have some dental work and could not have toys or chew bones or play fetch for about 6 weeks - obedience training and running was our only available outlet for her considerable energy.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Doc E » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:28 pm

Men should be castrated so they don't get testicular cancer.
Women should all have bilateral mastectomies so they don't get breast cancer.
The list goes on and on.

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby orhunter » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:17 pm

Do not fall for your vet's BS on the subject of spaying. Your pup needs to develop with all it's hormones intact for proper muscular skeletal growth. Early spaying ( for no other reason than to transfer your $$$'s to his $$$'s ) is irresponsible dog ownership. May sound harsh but that's the way it is.....
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby MillieGriff » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:24 pm

Thank you to all for your very helpful replies. We will continue to research the preventative bloat surgery and the timing of Millie's spay. We just became members of the parent and Potomac NAVHDA chapters, and we're really looking forward to the September training day in a week. We have so much to learn, but hopefully our pup's "natural ability" will outweigh the various mistakes we make along the way.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby GRIFF MAN » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:12 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:I will add that everything else Griff Man said I agree with .



Holy cow!! Can you come over and tell my wife the good news....someone agrees with me ! :D


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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:22 am

Doc E wrote:Men should be castrated so they don't get testicular cancer.
Women should all have bilateral mastectomies so they don't get breast cancer.
The list goes on and on.

.


Appreciate you giving your opinion Doc....saved me the trouble of giving mine. Should probably have the spleen removed while they are at it.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:17 am

MillieGriff wrote:Thank you to all for your very helpful replies. We will continue to research the preventative bloat surgery and the timing of Millie's spay. We just became members of the parent and Potomac NAVHDA chapters, and we're really looking forward to the September training day in a week. We have so much to learn, but hopefully our pup's "natural ability" will outweigh the various mistakes we make along the way.


Spay between first and second heat for working dogs, before first heat for pet dogs. One heat cycle is acceptable risk to allow for maximal development in working dogs prior to spay. After 2 heat cycles your dogs risk of mammary cancer jumps dramatically, and still outweighs the very mild risk of hemangiosarcona identified in a study on golden retrievers, and osteosarcoma identified in Rottweilers. Both of those breeds are particularly prone to those types of cancers. A more recent study in Labradors found much less significant differences, so spay timing may someday be breed based risk as well.

My pup was spayed at 7 months, earlier than I had originally wanted, but she was under anesthesia for her dental work already. What a vet chooses for their own dog tells you we feel its best for the dog, not just to keep busy.
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Doc E » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:48 am

Misskiwi67 wrote: After 2 heat cycles your dogs risk of mammary cancer jumps dramatically.


Dramatically ? I don't think so.

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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:41 am

Doc E wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote: After 2 heat cycles your dogs risk of mammary cancer jumps dramatically.


Dramatically ? I don't think so.

.

From less than 1% occurance to 5%, then after 3rd heat 25% occurance- if that's not dramatic then what is??
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Re: Preventative Minimally Invasive Gastropexy for Griffon?

Postby Doc E » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:49 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:From less than 1% occurance to 5%, then after 3rd heat 25% occurance- if that's not dramatic then what is??


Where did you get those numbers ?

Are you saying that out of 100 intact females that 25 of them will develop mammary cancer ------ or that the incidence rate goes up 25% ? Big difference between the two.

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