Vaccines and dogs

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Vaccines and dogs

Postby hicntry » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:06 pm

Thought I would post this as I seem to remember something recently about vaccinosis being a crock.


http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/pu ... n-studies/
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:48 am

OK...so I plowed through this article and what is missing seems very conspicuous. What % of dogs actually have medical complications from vaccines? What % of a control group have these range of complications w/o vaccines?

What % of unvaccinated dogs can be expected to have health altering diseases? How much does this differ from the % of dogs that are vaccinated?

I have many other ????'s but these are conspicuously missing from the discussion.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby hicntry » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:01 pm

Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:04 pm

My wife reads abstracts and papers for the NIH. What is detectable, or significant statistically is often without significance when it comes to the actual influence on morbidity/mortality. In other words, a great many grants are given and scince generated in order to publish even more reams of paper with little or no real practical significance. That's what is lacking in these links. Just because we can detect 3 parts/billion of chemical contaminant doesn't mean we need to change it...if you get what I mean.

A significant number of people have adverse and serious reaction to aspirin....yet the overall advantages would seem to be worth it.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby RCNZ » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:48 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:OK...so I plowed through this article and what is missing seems very conspicuous. What % of dogs actually have medical complications from vaccines? What % of a control group have these range of complications w/o vaccines?

What % of unvaccinated dogs can be expected to have health altering diseases? How much does this differ from the % of dogs that are vaccinated?

I have many other ????'s but these are conspicuously missing from the discussion.


I had the same thought so I tried to look up the original published article on the database I use for research and I couldn't find it. It seems it's been removed.

This was the best I could find

http://www.borzoihealth.com/documents/vaccinestudy.PDF

It seems that the answer to your question is that no dogs had medical complications. It also seems that the dogs did not actually develop antibodies to their own biochemistry. They developed antibodies to some similar bovine proteins as a result of them being present as a result of the production process in the vaccinations. The risk supposedly that there may in time be some cross reaction but this has not been demonstrated in this study.

I have a lot of dogs over the years and they've all been vaccinated. I've never had a problem.

Another point to consider is the study group was a relatively homogenous group composed of beagles bred for research. I would presume that they are all closely related so that's hardly a representative study in my mind. I think the genetic factor is overlooked far too often. It seems the thing to do to me is to breed away from dogs that have problems instead of decrying vaccinations.

Right or wrong I don't know but that's my impression from what I've read and my immunology classes.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby orhunter » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:29 am

RCNZ: Common sense is somewhat uncommen these days but you seem to have a bit of it.

I'm always skeptical of any headlines that make sensational claims. We can take anything that is extremely rare and make it sound deadly simply by distorting the facts. People don't take the time to consider the real message other than the one implied. A 20% increase in something that is quite rare, is still quite rare. A 200% increase is still very rare. One part per million that suddenly increases to 3 parts per million is a 200% increase. It has nothing to do with with any particular danger, real or imagined.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby RCNZ » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 pm

orhunter wrote:I'm always skeptical of any headlines that make sensational claims. We can take anything that is extremely rare and make it sound deadly simply by distorting the facts. People don't take the time to consider the real message other than the one implied. A 20% increase in something that is quite rare, is still quite rare. A 200% increase is still very rare. One part per million that suddenly increases to 3 parts per million is a 200% increase. It has nothing to do with with any particular danger, real or imagined.


Absolutely.

The other thing is that people that write articles like that clearly don't understand how the immune system works. Production of self recognizing receptors is a normal thing but there is a proofreading system to destroy them before they go out into the system. The immune system is unable to produce a response to something (for better or worse) if the receptors aren't around in the first place. Therefore it's normal and expected for the bovine antibodies to come up. It's a very, very long way to ending up with an immune response to the body's own tissues.

Like you say though, you can make anything look significant if you present the numbers in a certain way. I've never had a dog affected and I've only ever personally seen one with an autoimmune disease that may or may not have been influenced by vaccinations. My assessment would be that the dog would have ended up with the problem vaccinations or not and if the vaccinations had any effect it would be that the problem showed up earlier but that's just speculation.

Another thing to consider is that these reactions come from contaminants in the vaccinations but people piss and moan when vaccinations are expensive. My recommendation is always that if you're worried about it, do your normal vaccinations when they're young and have titres done when they are older and only vaccinate when necessary to maintain protection. The small risk of vaccination however is nothing compared to some of the diseases they can get if unprotected.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby huntnvet » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:50 am

I tried to find the articles as well with no luck.
I read the other links and agree withRCNZ.
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Re: Vaccines and dogs

Postby Steve Anker » Wed May 08, 2013 7:15 am

One of my very BEST dogs died shortly after being vaccinated. A result of some immuno-deficiency. It was a long week, back and forth to the Vets in anguish. My reflex to this happening has been a very careful and thought out regimen concerning vaccinations. No more the six or seven in one shots, testing for needed shots vs. regular vacc's.
The loss of just ONE great dog can change your mind, it did for me.
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