Parvo

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Parvo

Postby hicntry » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:40 pm

Had a bout with parvo over the last week and a half. First time in a number of years. Had 13 pups that played and slept together. Four got it and I didn't have the ringers on hand for the first two and they were the only ones lost. The other nine pups never missed a lick. I was wondering about this since I brought in the East German line.....now I know.
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Re: Parvo

Postby Georgia Boy » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:45 pm

What do you know now?
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Re: Parvo

Postby hicntry » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:44 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:What do you know now?


That bringing in new genetics lessens the resistance to parvo. While I still have good resistance, it isn't what it was.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Parvo

Postby huntnvet » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:53 pm

You've said you never take your dogs to the vet, so how did you know that the 4 pups had parvo?
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Re: Parvo

Postby hicntry » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:53 am

Do you really think you have to be a vet to know parvo when you see it? This wasn't my first rodeo doc and when you keep as many dogs as I have for years, you get real good at recognizing things like parvo.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Parvo

Postby huntnvet » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:13 pm

Whether you are a veterinarian or not has nothing to do with this. I asked that question, because of the conclusion you drew….decreased genetic resistance.

There are several diseases a puppy can have which show signs similar to parvo, so how do you know you are dealing with parvo? The number of litters you have produced at your kennel is irrelevant, because that doesn't somehow endow you with the ability to see virus. The only way to be certain, or about 99% so, is to run a snap test. If you don’t do this, you are just guessing as to what the pup’s problem was; thus, the conclusion that German line dogs have less resistance based on this litter has no merit.
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Re: Parvo

Postby hicntry » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:02 pm

LOL Doc, Years ago I was owed a pup for a female I gave another breeder. This was after I was pretty familiar with parvo. I put the pup I received in with a litter of my pups. Ten days later the pup was in bad shape. I took her to the vet. She had parvo. That pup was a 50/50 cross also and died later that night. I told the vet that it was in with a litter of 10 of my dogs and, at his request, I went home and brought two of my pups in to be tested. They were eating, drinking and playing, yet, tested positive for parvo. The vet had me call the vet school at Davis and explain all this because he had never seen it.....which I did. Their response was, "So what!" Well, from prior experience with parvo, I kept all the pups that had had it which after a few years meant that all my breedstock, both males and females had a very high resistance to parvo. When do I see it? When I bring in new blood. Experience is something you don't get out of a book doc. I have done this dance before so I do know the steps. You kind of remind me of the government agent in a joke I recently received.
"You got to love those with-----government authority

A DEA officer stopped at a ranch in Texas , and talked with an old rancher. He told the rancher, "I need to inspect your ranch for illegally grown drugs."

The rancher said, "Okay, but don't go in that field over there.....," as he pointed out the location.

The DEA officer verbally exploded saying, " Mister, I have the authority of the Federal Government with me!"

Reaching into his rear pants pocket, the arrogant officer removed his badge and proudly displayed it to the rancher.

"See this badge?! This badge means I am allowed to go wherever I wish.... On any land !! No questions asked or answers given!! Have I made myself clear......do you understand ?!!"

The rancher nodded politely, apologized, and went about his chores.

A short time later, the old rancher heard loud screams, looked up, and saw the DEA officer running for his life, being chased by the rancher's big Santa Gertrudis bull......

With every step the bull was gaining ground on the officer, and it seemed likely that he'd sure enough get gored before he reached safety. The officer was clearly terrified.

The rancher threw down his tools, ran to the fence and yelled at the top of his lungs.....

(I just love this part....)


"Your badge, show him your BADGE........ ! !"

I did find your post on skin problems to be a great post and very informative and I thank you for that...........but..........preach to someone that is interested in buying what you are selling.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Parvo

Postby orhunter » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:48 pm

"Experience is something you don't get out of a book." No offence Dr. but ya gotta like this one. I deal with the same crap out this way when the subject of what's commonly referred to as "Salmon Poisoning" comes up.
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Re: Parvo

Postby hicntry » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:10 am

I am really sorry I didn't answer doc a bit differently. It should have inquired as to what these other viruses that mimic parvo so well that he, as a vet, can't tell the difference. I am sure corona is one just not sure what the others may be. I would like to know because anyone can look up the symptoms, speed of lethality, and cure. Maybe doc will still join in. As for a vet being the only one that can tell for sure. I had a vet tell me a 11/2 year old dog had cataracs in both eyes and it would be about $400 hundred per eye to be repaired. She said she checked both eyes carefully. I listened intently and reached down and turned the dogs head to face her.....The right eye was visibly opaque because the dog was blind on the right side from a shotgun pellet. I had the vet that owned the place come out and he took the dog and checked the dogs eyes and came out and fired the vet because the dog didn't have any problem. Another diagnosis from a vet was distemper. I looked at him and took a guess that he must have been a practicing vet for about 40 years. He said yes. I told him my guess would also be his vet license came out of a crackerjack box. He blew up and the owner opened the door and asked if there was a problem. The owner stood in the door and glanced over at the dog and simply said that dog doesn't have distemper. That vet lost his job. I could tell such stories for another hour or so with ease....but I am sure the point was made.

Would still like to know the several other things that mimic parvo so well that your average country bumpkin can't tell the difference. :wink:
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Parvo

Postby huntnvet » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:35 pm

OK hicntry, give me some time to get back and read the posts, my take me a few days, I stay pretty busy.

I didn’t mean to imply that only a vet can diagnose parvo, but I can see how you came to that conclusion from my original question. Rather, I was curious if you bought and did your own tests, used a vet, or just decided that a pup with diarrhea had parvo. I figured you didn’t test the dogs, so I wanted to offer some advice.

Not preaching or selling anything, as you say, but my advice to use some diagnostic tests might improve your breeding program, this is how: If you took a random sample of pups from each generation and tested them (for parvo virus, or titers) you would remove most of the human bias from your breeding decision; thus, you could reach your goal faster and with more certainty. Another, and even stronger, approach would be to challenge the pups in each generation, in other words infect them with parvo and select the ones that survive. Both of these approaches are standard methods used in laboratory breeding programs to generate a specific type of offspring. Given how proud you are of your dogs, considering such an approach, while more labor intensive, I thought you find it helpful. Now maybe you did this in the early generations of your program, but I don’t get that feeling from your previous posts.

The human bias I’m referring to is what my original question was getting-at. I will agree that experience is a great teacher and that after seeing many pups you can make an educated guess, but it will always be just that. In this case specifically, you pointed-out the very bias I’m referring to…….when you look at a litter of pups and some have diarrhea, you think, what pathology could cause that. The only differentials you gave were parvo or corona; thus, your conclusion is that every pup has a 50% chance of being parvo positive. What if your differentials were parvo, corona, distemper, salmonella, e-coli, clostridium, campylobacter, GI foreign body, protozoa, intestinal worms, or giardia. While the differentials are not weighted equally with prevalence, the possibility still exists. With a greater number of possibilities, your chance of being incorrect increases; thus, your chance of bias increases. This increase in bias is the very reason for using diagnostic tests, they could only improve your breeding program.

Your conclusion that the German dog’s inferior genetics were the ultimate cause for the sick pups may be correct….but if you applied a bit more scientific rigor to your program, you could prove that you were correct.

Just some food for thought

Oh yea, I did like your joke, made me laugh!
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Re: Parvo

Postby huntnvet » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:36 pm

The comment of “can’t learn everything out of a book” is true. And since you put so much stock in experience as a stand-alone teacher, then vets do pretty good……

20 dogs per day x 5 days per week = 100 dogs per week

100 x 50wks/yr = 5000 dogs/yr

5000 x 10yrs = 50,000 dogs

The best part of experience, is that when you add in that silly book-learning component you and orhunter referred to, the experience is exponentially more valuable!
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Re: Parvo

Postby orhunter » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:39 pm

Had a pup with "the" symptoms. Put him on a bland diet of brown rice and turkey burger for two days. Good as new. Pups and sometimes older dogs, get stuff.... Canola oil will sometimes produce Parvo like symptoms.
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Re: Parvo

Postby orhunter » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:57 pm

Dr.

No part of "book learnin" is silly. For some folks, learnin' just stops there.

A good rule is for Vets to not make any kind of diagnosis without proper testing. This comes from book learnin', something the rest of us don't have much of.

Another anecdote: Pup was showing abdominal stress, poor appetite, discomfort, lethargy, but not excessive. Vet could not diagnose and did lots of expensive testing including a Barium Infusion. After a couple of weeks, I took in a fecal sample and insisted they look at it. This should have been the first test, not the last. I was upset. Cost me more than I paid for the dog in vet bills when it should have been under $100.
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Re: Parvo

Postby hicntry » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:13 pm

huntnvet wrote:The comment of “can’t learn everything out of a book” is true. And since you put so much stock in experience as a stand-alone teacher, then vets do pretty good……

20 dogs per day x 5 days per week = 100 dogs per week

100 x 50wks/yr = 5000 dogs/yr

5000 x 10yrs = 50,000 dogs

The best part of experience, is that when you add in that silly book-learning component you and orhunter referred to, the experience is exponentially more valuable!


Doc, to use your own words,

"The number of litters you have produced at your kennel is irrelevant"

As is your 20 dogs per day yadda, yadda yadda. All different breeds, all unrelated dogs, all raised by different people in different ways, each breed and individual dog having it's own weaknesses. While it is experience, it isn't the same as one person looking at the same dogs, same breed, same line through 13 generations.

I bet I can look at my dogs and diagnose problems with more accuracy than you can with the variety you deal with. That isn't a put down, but a fact doc. I can't tell you how many people that bought pups call me and tell me they did the recommended(by me) vet check and the vet told them the pups should be put down because the pup wouldn't live. I am left explaining to the customer, many times while they are in tears, that the vet just got no bedside manner and the pup will be fine....disregard what he said and keep weights on the pup with each visit and make sure the same vet gives each of the shots.....so he can get some real experience that the books didn't explain to him.....like tightly bred lines often have their own quirks specific to the line. I then explain "thriving" to them and that the pup in question is fine and gaining weight in the proper ratio the the rest of the litter. The murmur is always gone by sixteen weeks. One of these people, a doctor himself and against my advice, took his pup to a specialist that told him he could correct it with major surgury. Came time for the surgury and the specialist couldn't detect the murmur. Vet didn't offer to compensate the man for his misdiagnosis either. Am I interpreting your statement when you say 5,000x10 years? You have been doing this for ten whole years?

I don't discount vets or some of their services. I don't do arterial repairs, I don't do umbilical hernias(not speaking of inguinal hernias). There are times they go to the vets because I know my limitations.

Let me put an experience question to you doc. I made a post recently regarding parvo and having misters in the pens. It was discounted as not being of any benefit by another here so I let it drop. I am curious to see what conclusions your experience with misting the pens containing pups with parvo. A benefit? No benfit and it is my imagination? What.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Parvo

Postby SMAbby » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:03 pm

No bearing here, just thought I would add.
Had a up with Parvo that we lost. Then, when I began working in animal control I encountered many many more parvo cases. Seems to me that I could walk into the animal bay and SMELL parvo. The smell of an animal with Parvo was very distinctive.

I think you guys should call this a draw. I dont think the Dr. was trying to one up anyone, just trying to help. I dont think all vets are out to make us feel inferior with all their "book learning". Least I dont get that feeling from this guy.

Same with Orhunter an Hicntry, you guys have alot of combined hands on knowledge. Combined with the docs book learning knowledge and moulded together and we should all have some good resources to turn to on this site! :wink:
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