UT duck search?

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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UT duck search?

Postby Densa44 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:47 pm

O.K. to those who know for sure. When is the dog under judgement? When it gets to the line before the shot or only when the dog is sent?

Second question, if the dog retrieves the bird early and has to be sent again, can the handler physically move the dog around, point her in the direction the handler wants her to go before sending her?

I know in a non slip retrieve test there is no touching the dog and it is under judgement as soon as it leaves the last blind and heads to the post.

Thanks
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Deuce » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:15 am

Judgement begins when you unleash the dog at your side before the shot.

When you take the duck on the retrieve you can handle/re-position the dog for a resend. Keep in mind that should the dog be disobedient it would be reflected in it's score for that task.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Densa44 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:00 am

Thank you very much, so the dog is being evaluated from the time the leash come off until the leash goes back on? Makes perfect sense to me.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Fun Dog » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:37 am

Actually judgement is from when the leash comes off till the judge tells you it's okay to call your dog in.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Deuce » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:51 am

Fun Dog wrote:Actually judgement is from when the leash comes off till the judge tells you it's okay to call your dog in.


Not true... What happens if the dog doesn't come back... Or at least in a timely manner? Sure judgment of the expanse and scope of search could stop then... But OB and coop can't be fully evaluated until the task is complete, I.e. The dog is back to the handler and on lead.

In a perfect world the dog comes right back and is leashed up. Sometimes... They have other plans. In my first UT I was told to call my dog at 10 min. She came back at 20 min with the duck as I was taking my shoes off to go get her.

I highly recommend a handlers clinic to understand how each section is looked at and scored. Densa, it sounds like you're chapter is doing quite well, may be worth planning for membership. It helped me know where I stand when I'm running.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Fun Dog » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:32 am

I have limited tests under my belt, but the ones I saw the dogs were not under judgement once the handler was told he could call his dog in. I watched as they did everything they could to get the dogs to come off the search. In fact the judges left the return of the dog up to others as they debated the scores. This would be a good question to ask VHD magazine.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:44 am

In both of Jack's tests he found and retrieved the duck in about 3 minutes so was resent to search for a duck that was not there. My biggest fear was he would not stop searching and come in when the Judges told me to bring him in. I was never clear how it would affect his score if he did not. Following along interested in the answer.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Densa44 » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:58 pm

Both my dogs have found the duck, the first one brought it back alive and handed it to the judge (I train the dog and my wife handles, an honest mistake). Our club has 2 ducks out there and the dogs would have for sure gone again if given the chance. If there are no ducks out there, can't the handler ask to have one released? I thought that was the idea, there should be something to find.

I agree that a hunting season is an enormous help. We shoot lots of ducks and the dogs go crazy when they see the shot gun. The duck search is their strong suit. My friends leave a lot of cripples.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Calvinator » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:06 pm

ALL the UT tests I've seen or participated in only one duck was released for each dog. Of course their could be more ducks out there if earlier dogs did not find and retrieve their ducks. I've never heard of two ducks being put out for each dog.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Fun Dog » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:33 pm

in the information packet for putting on a test you are to allow 1.5 ducks for each dog for the search. I've never seen that other half a duck used. The dog doesn't need to find the duck, but if it does the retrieve is judged. The judges may or may not ask the dog to go again depending on what they have seen thus far. No shot on the second send so make sure your dog will go back out. I am quite convinced that it is the longest ten minutes of ones life. It's long if the dog is doing well and even longer if the dog is messing up.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Deuce » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:12 pm

AverageGuy wrote:In both of Jack's tests he found and retrieved the duck in about 3 minutes so was resent to search for a duck that was not there. My biggest fear was he would not stop searching and come in when the Judges told me to bring him in. I was never clear how it would affect his score if he did not. Following along interested in the answer.


You'll most likely get dinged in co-op/OB but may not take away from the 4 in search. There is some leeway to call the dog off, but if the dog not coming back starts interfering with the rest of the test it'll show up in the scores. This is where the handlers clinic is helpful. It's not just the search under judgement, it's nose, desire, co-op, and OB too.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Calvinator » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:24 pm

First dog I ever ran in UT, she found the duck after about 5 minutes. The chase after the duck went on for a long time. The judges could not get a safe shot on the duck. One judge went out in a canoe to get a shot on the duck. In order to do so, he had to cut the dog off of the duck. No retrieve was required. She got a 4.
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby Densa44 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:30 am

Shooting the duck! I get that a duck chase is not a duck search, but lets give the dog a chance. The first time it happened to us, the dog came out of the rushes about a foot behind the bird, and the judge called for the shotgun. My wife who was handling the dog said NO! she'll get the duck, at that moment Ginnine put her front paw on the bird, sunk it, dunked her head under water and came up with the live duck in her mouth. As I said, we shoot a lot of ducks here and with the friends I have we get a lot of cripples, so when it comes to picking up live birds my dogs have lots of experience.

I don't like the idea of anyone shooting at a bird that my dog is trying to catch. In a hunting situation I wouldn't allow it. It is just too dangerous for the dog. I can always add a dog or two to the chase if need be to get a lively cripple.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: UT duck search?

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:52 pm

Densa44 wrote:Shooting the duck! I get that a duck chase is not a duck search, but lets give the dog a chance. The first time it happened to us, the dog came out of the rushes about a foot behind the bird, and the judge called for the shotgun. My wife who was handling the dog said NO! she'll get the duck, at that moment Ginnine put her front paw on the bird, sunk it, dunked her head under water and came up with the live duck in her mouth. As I said, we shoot a lot of ducks here and with the friends I have we get a lot of cripples, so when it comes to picking up live birds my dogs have lots of experience.

I don't like the idea of anyone shooting at a bird that my dog is trying to catch. In a hunting situation I wouldn't allow it. It is just too dangerous for the dog. I can always add a dog or two to the chase if need be to get a lively cripple.


And, especially in water!

We have gun sensitivity in water evaluations in our tests, and some judges seem to feel the need to shoot closer than I think is necessary.

I've maybe one more test in my career, the rules allow, and I am going to insist that I do the shooting over my dog, period.

The thing about a duck "search" is that generally when it becomes a sight chase the search has concluded. And, it's best that the pup get the retrieve. On occasion, the great duck can make this change, though.

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Re: UT duck search?

Postby ryanr » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:02 am

Densa44 wrote:Shooting the duck! I get that a duck chase is not a duck search, but lets give the dog a chance. The first time it happened to us, the dog came out of the rushes about a foot behind the bird, and the judge called for the shotgun. My wife who was handling the dog said NO! she'll get the duck, at that moment Ginnine put her front paw on the bird, sunk it, dunked her head under water and came up with the live duck in her mouth. As I said, we shoot a lot of ducks here and with the friends I have we get a lot of cripples, so when it comes to picking up live birds my dogs have lots of experience.

I don't like the idea of anyone shooting at a bird that my dog is trying to catch. In a hunting situation I wouldn't allow it. It is just too dangerous for the dog. I can always add a dog or two to the chase if need be to get a lively cripple.


From what I've seen they call for the duck to be shot if the dog is still on it AFTER the judges have already seen enough from the dog. Shooting the duck is a means to an end to get the dog back and move on with the test. I also learned something valuable at a test when the judges called for the duck to be shot and the person that paddled out to shoot the duck definitely appeared to put the dog at risk when he shot at the duck. One of the other handlers (a highly respected NAVHDA judge & official) commented that "if a duck needs to be shot for my dog I WILL BE THE ONE TO SHOOT IT." I'm of basically the same mindset, only I or somebody I know & trust their shooting and safety skills will ever shoot a duck for my dog during a duck search. I'd probably just pull my dog if told otherwise.
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