The "Green Book"?

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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The "Green Book"?

Postby Densa44 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:13 am

Is there any move afoot to up date, revise or modernize this book? There members in our club who are convinced that this is the final word on how to train a versatile dog. I think that they are wrong and that there are better or at least just as good alternative ways of reaching the same ends.

Is it just me or have others made a similar observation?
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:23 pm

Of all the training resources I have, the green book is the one I liked the least. I hope there is someone who wants to revise it, but Im not active enough in NAVDA to be concerned about it.
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby 3drahthaars » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:26 pm

This is a common issue in the dog world... i.e. the ONLY way to train something.

I think that this has been around for a long time.

I think that it has gotten worse with the advent of DVDs and the "the method" mentality.

I think that it has gotten worse with the one dog wonders that are populating the versatile world.

I think that it reflects the ignorance of the masses... a good dog trainer is always open to new methods, because each and every dog is different. No one seems to preach that you have to read a dog first to determine what corrections are required to train.


Personally, I just prefer to ignore...


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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Calvinator » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:40 pm

3ds,
Well said!
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Big Bird » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:45 pm

There is a saying "There is only one thing two dog trainers will agree on - that the third is doing it wrong" .

The "Green Book" was written in 1969 and as much as the information is outdated, there is basic information for the novice handler. Yes there are better information tools, but we should remember that 100 % of the proceeds from the sale of the books goes to NAVHDA.

Has NAVHDA an author that would write a updated book, willing to donate the proceeds to NAVHDA? Remember, , there is only one thing two dog trainers will agree on ! :multi:
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Deacon » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:01 pm

This is a common issue in the dog world... i.e. the ONLY way to train something.


Agreed! At the field trials I have attended I always hear people talk about the "NAVHDA way of training", as if there is a monolithic way. The last two years at our NAVHDA chapter we have hosted workshops with an AKC horseback field trial judge. There was a great exchange of ideas flowing in both directions. There would be a great number of field trialers who would be benefited by working with NAVHDA groups, especially if their breeds require retrieving points prior to obtaining their FC's.

I would also encourage any V dog owners to join their local retriever club, provided those clubs are open minded enough to take them in.

You can learn something from everybody, even if what you learned is simply what not to do.
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:36 pm

Yes, throw the book in the trash and go to training days instead!
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby migratesouth » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:19 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Yes, throw the book in the trash and go to training days instead!


Not all chapters are created equal and sometimes additional resources are needed.
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby orhunter » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:58 am

I agree with Migratesouth. Not that the Green Book is the answer as there are many answers, none wrong.....if the training fits the dog.
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Constructeur » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:03 pm

With things like the green book, I have the benefit of standing on the shoulders of generations before me. That goes for the good and the bad. I also need to constantly pay attention to what my dog is telling me, and what I think will best serve the 2 of us in the 'puzzle' of dog training. Sometimes that's methods and solutions that are unique, controversial, or just not from the NAVHDA realm.


...still, throw it in the trash? I think you've forgotten that this is a NFP, was started, and continues due to (mostly) volunteers. People that merely want to see the versatile style of dog succeed, and want nothing more than for you to succeed at having the dog you had in your minds eye when you considered the life experience of getting a gun dog.
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:53 am

I don't agree that training days are necessarily the solution... there are training days/groups and there are training days/groups.

You will find cliques, factions, and such founded on culture, kennel allegiance, mutual admiration societies, etc.

A training day hosted by a one-dog wonder can be a recipe for disaster for novices.

So, my advice is to the novice is:
  • go to training days and WATCH to differentiate between the handlers that KNOW and the ones that don't (watch their dogs, because if the dog's performance speaks for itself... the good handler won't interrupt).
  • gradually collect a few reference books, DVDs, etc. and digest them while you get a pup out and exposed to the field for the first year
  • hunt the pup... instead of wasting valuable weekends training during the first two hunting seasons!
I think I see more and more "training/testing dogs" these days than "hunting dogs".

When you are holding the urn of your dog's ashes and reflecting on its hunting career, you don't want to be realizing that you spent almost its entire life training for a test, and less than a week each year actually hunting. The same goes for upland vs. waterfowl... when the ducks aren't migrating I don't wait anymore. I either go to them or step up my upland hunting so that I get every day possible in the field with my pup...

As for my suggestions for references...
  • Altmoor Drahthaar Puppy Manual (the authors have trained/handled several breeds through NAVHDA and JGHV tests and they are good dog people)
  • Bill Hillman's DVD for training retrieve and the one for Traffic Cop ( the former is genius, the latter damn near and useful for any stationary command like SIT, WHOA, etc.)
  • The TriTronics book by the Dobbs' (still some good stuff in it)
  • the Smartworks stuff... my personal take is that it helps a newbie learn structure, i.e. more of a system to train the trainer

just my $.02,

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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:59 pm

Bob,

I looked up the Hillman DVDs. The one on Traffic Cop is obvious but I was unclear which one you are referencing for training retrieve. If you would please, advise me/us of the title you are recommending for training retrieve. They are expensive and I want to get the right one. Thanks.

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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Densa44 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:50 am

There are a lot of great insights in this post. "We all can say something bad about another trainer", rings very familiar. How true. The book is out dated, that is true too, there is more than one way to teach a dog, and watch the other guy's dog before taking his advice. The people on this forum have been around!

I think there are lots of trainers would would be proud to contribute a chapter to a revised new addition if it weren't for the back biting. They would do it pro bono too.

One other phenomenon I have noticed is, the old fellows who are experts that I know, actually say the least and are less sure that they know it all than the new guys. Have others noticed this or is it just me?

I'm sure that the successful trainers on this site have tips/observations that would be a big help to new trainers. I'll start with "what I wish I'd known 50 years ago".

1. Teach don't test
2. Don't bore the dog or another way, quit when you are ahead!
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Re: The "Green Book"?

Postby Calvinator » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:52 pm

There are many ways to train a dog the same behavior. Not all ways will work with every dog. As a trainer, you must carry a full tool box of techniques. The "Green Book" old? Yes. Do all the techniques in the book still work? Yes. There is no such thing as an outdated training technique if it works. I find that many people want to find the shortcuts and/or quickest way to a trained dog. Sometimes the shortcuts work, at least for a while. Sometimes a trainer must go back to basics.
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